Debate with Letusreason1234: My opening statement

As mentioned over a month ago, I will be debating a JW who goes by the nick, Letusreason1234.  However, we couldn't seem to agree on the method by which we'd approach this debate so we decided to do this on YouTube via video responses.  Assuming the full debate will be completed, i'll make an audio download as well as a full length video of the debate.  Here is my opening:

Antitheism Presupposes Theism

THIS is a very interesting post from JAMES ANDERSON which appears to be an elaboration from THIS PAPER, which was recently released for public viewing.  Those interested in the Transcendental Argument for God's existence and possibly even the Ontological Argument will likely find this post as helpful as I did.

Review of the March 2012 Watchtower Study Edition

In this review, I focus primarily on Romans 8 and a unique interpretation provided by the Watchtower as it relates to their "two class" theology.  I also discuss some other elements of interest in the same article.

You can watch the review HERE

You can listen to the review HERE

You can download the March 2012 Watchtower Study Edition HERE

On a side note, i'm very much considering doing a podcast in the near future.  The reason being, i'm realizing that far more people are out there who are just like me with little time to read and a lot of time to listen.  I've got the necessary equipment to do it, but my audio acoustics (as you can tell) are pretty awful in my current living situation.  But that is going to change soon, Lord willing (so long as my next place doesn't have hard wood floors and thin walls!).

Anyway, doing reviews of Watchtowers like this might make for a good podcast in addition to debates and dialogues. I'm just brainstorming out loud right now, so we'll see what happens.

Debate on "hell" now available!

From the Theopologetics Blog:

Episode 70 and Episode 71 of the Theopologetics Podcast is now available! Debate topic: "The punishment of the damned will actually be torment forever and ever." Hiram Diaz, creator of the Involuted Speculations blog and contributor at Grassroots Apologetics, affirms. Chris Date, host of the Theopologetics Podcast, denies. Moderated by Mike Felker of The Apologetic Front. 

Strangely, I had only received audience questions from the annihilationist perspective.  Therefore, I had to come up with the "audience questions" myself in challenging annihilationism.  Anyway, I hope you all enjoy this interaction and feel free to leave your comments!

What do you believe about hell?

In less than a week i'll be moderating a DEBATE on hell and I could really use some help from my readers.  At the end of the debate, there will be a Q&A period where i'll be asking each participant questions "from the audience."  That's you.  If you object to the traditional understanding of hell (conscious torment, etc.) or the conditionalist perspective (annihilationism, conditional punishment, etc.), I need questions from both sides.

If you would, please EMAIL your questions to me and perhaps you'll hear them read and answered in the debate!

I'm very excited to have been selected to moderate and I will certainly be posting the debate here on the blog once its uploaded.  Who knows, this may spark some interest on my part to delve deeper into this issue and refine my own views.

Are the Watchtower's predictions "hollow?"

Sometimes I wonder if the Governing Body remembers their own history.  But then again, i've come to expect them to be less than honest, which is quite unfortunate.  Though there might be some who would love nothing more than to have a "gotcha" moment in pointing out yet another less-than-honest statement by the Governing Body, I would much rather them demonstrate some humility.

Given the recent false prediction by Harold Camping, I was actually hoping the Governing Body would leave this one alone.  Otherwise, it would not be the first time they have applied a double standard in accusing others of making false predictions that didn't come to pass.

However, in the February 1, 2011 Watchtower on p. 25, the leaders in Brooklyn had this to say,

First of all, this statement is not completely accurate regarding Camping's prediction.  Like the Watchtower's pre-1914 predictions, Camping's was based upon his faulty interpretation of the Scriptures.  And as far as I know, Camping didn't claim any type of non-biblical divine revelation that God had personally given to him.  In fact, any claims to authority Camping would have made could only pale in comparison to what the Watchtower had and continues to claim for themselves.  The point is, the reader of the Watchtower may have gotten the impression that Camping just made up everything or had some type of inspired revelation from God.

Second, the prediction made by Camping is described as "hollow."  I agree.  The problem is, where did the Watchtower ever describe their own predictions in this manner?  At the very least, did the Watchtower ever apologize for their false predictions which resulted in a severe disappointment for many?  Consider only a few,

“The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914.” –The Watchtower July 15, 1924 p. 211

“Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection.” –Millions Now Living will Never Die  1920, p. 90 

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. -Awake! 1969 5/22 p. 15

Shortly, within our twentieth century, the “battle in the day of Jehovah” will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom. -The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah p. 216

The purpose of Awake! is stated clearly on page 4 of each issue: “This magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” Certainly such a magazine deserves as wide a distribution as possible in our house-to-house ministry! -Kingdom Ministry 10/93 p. 8

Could these false predictions be described as anything short of "hollow?"  If so, then where were they ever appropriately described as such?  If they weren't, then would such neglect be what one would expect from "God's organization?"

This is information that I would encourage some to share with their JW friends and family.  Do so with caution, humility, and love.  But never do so at the expense of the gospel and pointing to Christ as "the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)  Remember, your goal is not to create an ex-JW, but a Christ follower.

Upcoming Debate with a Jehovah's Witness

My JW friend Letusreason1234 has recently agreed to a formal debate with me.  The debate will be formulated a bit differently than most but the outcome will be the same.  That is, we will be exchanging our videos back and forth so that both sides can articulate the best possible arguments without being put on the spot.  However, there will be live cross examination.  But I think this style of debate will be a good example for those who don't think they can debate because they aren't good debaters.  Hopefully, the full debate will be posted by the end of the month.  It will be in both video and audio form.  The proposition and format will go as follows:

Proposition: There is only one class of Christians with one eternal hope

Affirmative: Mike Felker

Negative: Letusreason1234

Opening Statements (20 minutes each)

Rebuttals (12 minutes each)

Rebuttals (8 minutes each)

Cross examination round 1 (7 minutes each)

Cross examination round 2 (7 minutes each)

Rebuttals (10 minutes each)

Closing Statements (7 minutes each)

2nd discussion with JW "Letusreason1234" on the eternal hope of Christians

Like our FIRST DISCUSSION, this one will continue along the same lines in contrasting the Jehovah's Witness view with what I believe to be the biblical view of all Christians living forever on the new earth.

You can watch the discussion HERE

You can listen to the discussion HERE

What is the proper view of the Watchtower and its literature?

In the following Watchtower article, two viewpoints are contrasted.  The first is the improper view,

*** w64 9/15 p. 574 Experiencing Jehovah’s Love ***

APPRECIATION FOR THE TRUTH

Not all the persons I have known in the organization have maintained their appreciation for the truth. To illustrate this, I want to mention an experience I had while in the pilgrim service. I was in Philadelphia at the time, and, after I had given a talk, an elective elder who claimed to be a brother came up to me and said: “Brother Riemer, I got my Watchtower this morning. The only reason I read that Watchtower is to find out what you fellows in Brooklyn are trying to put over on us.” That was the spirit of some of the elective elders. They were causing splits in the congregations and in the work.

Contrast this improper view with what would be a proper view of the Watchtower in the very next paragraph,

*** w64 9/15 p. 574 Experiencing Jehovah’s Love ***

In contrast to the attitude of these elective elders was that of an elderly couple with whom I stayed on the outskirts of Richmond, Virginia. The brother went down to get the mail before breakfast, and when we had breakfast he said, “Brother Riemer, I got a new Watchtower this morning, and do you know the first thing that Ma and I do when we get that Tower? We kneel down before we take the wrapper off and ask Jehovah to make us worthy to see what the message is that Jehovah has for us. Now, before we take the wrapper off, will you kneel down and pray with us?” How different that elective elder was from this humble couple who appreciated Jehovah’s organization!

Is Watchtower literature simply "Bible study aids" or something more?  What is your view of Watchtower literature? Does your attitude and behavior reflect the improper view or the proper view?

(ht: 21Crosscheck21)

Discussion with a JW on the eternal hope of Christians

Recently, I had another discussion with a Jehovah's Witness on the eternal hope of Christians.  The Watchtower teaches that there will be a literal group of 144,000 anointed Jehovah's Witnesses who rule with Christ in heaven over the rest of Jehovah's Witnesses who will live on a paradise earth.  However, I believe in accordance with the Scriptures that all Christians will live forever on the new earth.

You can watch the interaction HERE

You can listen to the interaction HERE

Lord willing, we will be having more interactions like these in the near future.

Correcting a miscitation from my interaction with the JW

I finally got around to listening to the INTERACTION I had with the JW from the other day and was overall pleased with how it went.  I won't go into reviewing or offering much critique in this post as I would like the viewers to decide for themselves (at least for now anyway).

But I did notice a blunder I made at about 41:30 where I attempted a paraphrase of the following quote:

*** w57 5/1 p. 284 par. 14 Trust Your Proved, Faithful Brothers ***

Showing respect for Jehovah’s organization really resolves itself down to our attitude toward God’s visible channel and the trust that we place in our proved, faithful brothers. If we have become thoroughly convinced that this is Jehovah’s organization, that he is guiding and directing his people, then we shall not be unsettled by anything that happens. If something comes up that we do not understand we will wait patiently until it is made thoroughly clear to us. If we feel sure something is wrong we will ‘keep the commandment’ of our Father and take whatever theocratic steps are open to us and then wait on Jehovah. We will not ‘forsake our mother’s teaching’ by immediately beginning to criticize and find fault. We will realize that Jehovah knows what is going on in his organization, and if he is willing to permit it, who are we to insist it should be different? If we really have faith, we will know that if it is wrong he will straighten it out eventually, and we are far safer inside his organization even with these minor difficulties than we would be on the outside where only chaos and destruction await us.

What I paraphrased went something as follows: "If we come to believe that something the Watchtower teaches is false, then we should just believe what they say anyway."  Of course, the part in bold contradicts this and is consistent with what my JW friend said whereby one should keep quite about it and let Jehovah straighten it out.  While I think that there are still some significant theological and psychological disagreements that I have with the above, I didn't represent it accurately.

However, i'm kicking myself now because there is a quote that appears to be consistent with what I paraphrased that I wish I would have used:

*** w52 2/1 pp. 79-80 pars. 11-12 Jehovah’s Theocratic Organization Today ***

We must show our understanding in these matters, appreciating our relationship to the visible theocratic organization, remembering the fate of those like Korah and Achan and Saul and Uzziah and others who forgot the theocratic order. Are we assigned as individuals to bring forth the food for the spiritual table? No? Then let us not try to take over the slave’s duties. We should eat and digest and assimilate what is set before us, without shying away from parts of the food because it may not suit the fancy of our mental taste. The truths we are to publish are the ones provided through the discreet-slave organization, not some personal opinions contrary to what the slave has provided as timely food. Jehovah and Christ direct and correct the slave as needed, not we as individuals. If we do not see a point at first we should keep trying to grasp it, rather than opposing and rejecting it and presumptuously taking the position that we are more likely to be right than the discreet slave. We should meekly go along with the Lord’s theocratic organization and wait for further clarification, rather than balk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us and proceed to quibble and mouth our criticisms and opinions as though they were worth more than the slave’s provision of spiritual food. Theocratic ones will appreciate the Lord’s visible organization and not be so foolish as to pit against Jehovah’s channel their own human reasoning and sentiment and personal feelings. 

12 Now some may ask, Should we accept as from the Lord and true the food provided through the discreet slave, or should we withhold acceptance until we have proved it for ourselves? If we have gained our present understanding of the Bible by feeding at the table set by the slave, if we have been thereby freed from false doctrines and built up in the clean and undefiled worship of God and given a new world hope, we should have some confidence in the slave’s provisions. After being nourished to our present spiritual strength and maturity, do we suddenly become smarter than our former provider and forsake the enlightening guidance of the organization that mothered us? “Forsake not the law of thy mother.” (Prov. 6:20-23) And if the heavenly Father would not give a stone or serpent or scorpion to a child who asked for bread or fish or an egg from him, are we to take the spiritual food he provides through the slave into our hands as if we were going to be bruised by a stone or bitten by a serpent or stung by a scorpion? (Matt. 7:7-11; Luke 11:9-13, NW) Are we to be doubtful and suspicious about each new provision? “He who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah.” (Jas. 1:6, 7, NW) Even the Beroeans first received Paul’s preaching “with the greatest readiness of mind”, and then went to “carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so”. (Acts 17:11, NW) This was the first real contact the Beroeans had with Paul’s preaching, yet they received it readily and then studied the Scriptural support for themselves. How much more readily we can receive the slave’s provisions with confidence, since, unlike the Beroeans, we have much past experience with the precious provisions from the slave. After receiving these food supplies we prove their Scripturalness for ourselves to make the message our own, in a spirit of meekness and trustfulness and not combativeness.

Its difficult not to underline nearly every sentence in this quotation because I think this well illustrates the point I was trying to make.  If a JW comes to question the correctness of something the WT teaches, what is he expected to do as a faithful JW? Hold silently to what he firmly believes as true?  No.  Instead, this one should "have some confidence in the slave's provisions," because we are not, "more likely to be right than the discreet slave."  Therefore, "we should meekly go along with the Lord's theocratic organization and wait for further clarification."

Unless i'm missing something, the faithful JW is expected to go along with what the WT teaches, even if it questionable or something we feel is incorrect.  After all, they're smarter than us, right?

Discussion with a Jehovah's Witness "WorldHistory2011" on Independent Thinking

Just last evening I had a most interesting encounter with a JW.  But this wasn't just any encounter; it was recorded.  It all started with the following comment on THIS VIDEO:

But was it a "complete lie?"  Though my comment in 2:25 of that video was made in passing (the subject of the video was something different), I backed up my claim by referencing the following Watchtower quotation:

*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***

Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.

No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature... Thus, “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight. 

 What transpired was a 45 minute discussion with WorldHistory2011.

Go HERE to watch the encounter.

Go HERE to listen to the encounter.

The 144,000 rule over..."the Bible does not say," says the Watchtower

In the January 15, 2012 Watchtower Study Edition, p. 30 par. 18, the following is stated,

18 Thereafter, how will Jehovah use these highly privileged associates of Christ? According to Revelation 22:5, “they will rule as kings forever and ever.” Over whom? The Bible does not say. But the quality of life that they possess and their experience in helping a world of imperfect people will equip them to hold a regal position in Jehovah’s purposes forever.

I found this to be an noteworthy admission for several reasons.  But first, it must be emphasized that the above quote is not necessarily new, for the Watchtower has previously articulated a similar point,

*** re chap. 43 p. 313 par. 30 The Resplendent City ***

³⁰ John closes out this magnificent vision by saying of these slaves of God: “And they will rule as kings forever and ever.” (Revelation 22:5b) True, at the end of the thousand years, the benefits of the ransom will have been applied to completion, and Jesus will present a perfected human race to his Father. (1 Corinthians 15:25-28) What Jehovah has in mind for Jesus and the 144,000 after that, we do not know. But Revelation assures us that their privileged sacred service to Jehovah will continue into all eternity.

The reason I have found this to be noteworthy is because of a commonly used argument by Jehovah's Witnesses in defending the "two-class theology."  For example,

*** rs p. 79 Born Again ***

If Someone Says—

‘I’ve been born again’

You might reply: ‘That means that you expect someday to be with Christ in heaven, doesn’t it? . . . Have you ever wondered what those who go to heaven will do there?’ Then perhaps add: (1) ‘They will be kings and priests, ruling with Christ. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10) Jesus said that these would be just a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32)’ (2) ‘If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? . . . Here are some points that I found to be very interesting when they were drawn to my attention. (Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22)’

In other words, if there are rulers then there must be subjects.  Who are the rulers and who are the subjects?

*** w75 1/1 p. 21 par. 7 Appreciating the Things of God ***

The Scriptures show that those who would be joint heirs with Christ in his kingdom and who would rule with him for a thousand years would be 144,000 in number, and that on earth there would be an unnumbered “great crowd” that would prove themselves loyal subjects of that kingdom.—Rev. 7:4-10; 14:3-5; 20:6.

But is this "great crowd" meant to be subject to the 144,000 for all eternity?  The above quote from the January 15, 2012 issue as well as the "Revelation book" (abbreviated "re" above) indicate that the Watchtower is not sure because "the Bible does not say."


So what effect does the rulers/subject argument really have if the Bible doesn't tell us who these kings rule over?  Does this mean that non-JW apologists are no longer obliged to answer this argument?  


Some might be interested to read how some JW's have responded to this HERE.

  

Watchtower issue: to join or not to join an organization?

*** w53 3/1 p. 143 par. 12 Integrity Leads to Life ***

We must seek to be genuine Christians in every sense of the word. Does that mean we have to join a church organization in Christendom? Ask yourself now, Did Christ Jesus, who set our example and told us to follow his example to gain life, join any church organization in his day? No, God does not require us to do that; but he requires us to worship him, to preach the good news of the Kingdom, to be Christians, to follow the example Jesus set, living in unalterable devotion to Jehovah God; to praise God and respect his supremacy, to resist all efforts to turn us from decency and to endure in faith. We have the Bible to show us the right way. Certainly it is not necessary for a person to become a member of a church to gain everlasting life.—John 3:16-18; 17:3.

But this is just talking about joining a "church" right?  Certainly, to be a true Christian one must join the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, right?

Consider the April 22, 1957 Awake! magazine (published by the Watchtower) on p. 12:

This would seem to be consistent with the 1953 Watchtower quoted above.  But what about one's dedication to the organization?

*** bh chap. 18 p. 183 par. 24 Baptism and Your Relationship With God ***

Remember, too, that you have made a dedication to Jehovah God himself, not to a work, a cause, other humans, or an organization. Your dedication and baptism are the beginning of a very close friendship with God—an intimate relationship with him.—Psalm 25:14.

But when one becomes one of Jehovah's Witnesses, where must his dedication and loyalty be?

*** w65 7/1 p. 412 Faithful and Loyal to God’s Organization ***

Jehovah God being The loyal One, it is but fitting that he should require loyalty of us. (Rev. 15:4) However, we cannot be loyal to God without being loyal to his visible earthly organization, the “faithful and discreet slave,” and the local Christian congregation which represents that “slave.”

If one isn't loyal to the Governing Body, then one isn't being loyal to God.  And just in case this isn't clear, the Governing Body teaches that one's loyalty to them must be absolute and unquestionable.

*** w10 9/15 p. 23 par. 8 “Your Leader Is One, the Christ” ***

The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the modern-day Governing Body, they are in fact following their Leader, Christ.

There you have it.  If you aren't following the Governing Body, you aren't following Christ.  Would anyone agree that there appears to be some dissonance between the quotes above?  Perhaps some bait-and-switch for those newly "joining" the organization?

(ht: Marvin Shilmer)

What was expected to happen in 1914?

*** w89 4/15 pp. 6-7 par. 8 The Infamous Harlot—Her Fall ***

⁸ For some 40 years the Bible Students boldly proclaimed that the year 1914 would mark the end of the Gentile Times. As expected, that year brought world-shaking events, not the least of these being the first world war. 

One has to wonder how the Watchtower can portray their own history in this light.  But then again, many JW's and non-JW's reading the literature may be unaware of its history of failed predictions.  Therefore, such ones would see no reason to question these commendations.

However, when one considers the nature of the actual predictions made pre-1914, it would be difficult to deny that such words are not an accurate portrayal.  Some may even conclude that such a misrepresentation of pre-1914 predictions are nothing short of dishonest.

Compare the above quotation to what was really said about 1914:

“The date of the close of that ‘battle’ is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914.  It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874.” –Zion’s Watch Tower Jan. 15, 1892 p. 22 

“We see no reason for changing the figures—nor could we change them if we would.  They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours.  But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.  We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the View presented in the Watch Tower of Jan. 15, ’92.  We advise that it be read again.” –Zion’s Watch Tower, July 15, 1894 p. 226 

“True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved…In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A.D. 1914.” –The Time is at Hand (1908 ed.) p. 99 

“Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that due ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.” –Time is at Hand (1911 ed.) p. 101

It should be readily obvious to anyone that there was more going on than predictions merely about "world shaking events" and the "end of the gentile times."  Thus, what happened in 1914 was not expected, contrary to what the Watchtower would have us believe according to the above quotation.  On the contrary, what was expected was "the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership." 

Another evangelical apologist advocating belief in the new earth.

Hat tip to Jay Hess for advocating the biblical doctrine of the new earth.  I hope more apologists will stop defending the idea that Christians will spend eternity in heaven, as this is not only unbiblical, but unproductive.  I was also very surprised to see that Charles Stanley, one of the most prominent figures in evangelical circles, defend the doctrine of the new earth.  So much for the belief of many JW's that they are the only ones believe in the new earth.

Who does John 6:68 apply to?

One Watchtower apologist thinks this applies to a non-profit printing organization located in Brooklyn, NY.  This is consistent with what the Watchtower themselves have stated:

*** w92 11/15 p. 21 Serve Jehovah Loyally ***

Nowhere Else to Go

¹² We will be impelled to serve Jehovah loyally with his organization if we remember that there is nowhere else to go for life eternal. When Jesus’ statements caused ‘many disciples to go off to the things behind,’ he asked his apostles: “You do not want to go also, do you?” Peter replied: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”—John 6:66-69.

However, the Scriptures are very clear on who this text is applied to if context means anything:

(John 6:66-71) ⁶⁶ Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. ⁶⁷ Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “YOU do not want to go also, do YOU?” ⁶⁸ Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; ⁶⁹ and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” ⁷⁰ Jesus answered them: “I chose YOU twelve, did I not? Yet one of YOU is a slanderer.” ⁷¹ He was, in fact, speaking of Judas [the son] of Simon Is·car′i·ot; for this one was going to betray him, although one of the twelve.

Who did Peter have in mind when he uttered the question, "whom shall we go away to?"  A printing organization that would not arise for another 2,000 years, or Jesus Himself?  

Watchtower apologists, such as StandFirm, want to divert the issue by arguing issues related to ecclesiology and whether Christians should worship God in opposition to those whom Christ Himself appointed as apostles in the first century.  But even if the Governing Body are who they claim to be, John 6:68 is contextually applicable only to Jesus.  To apply it to seven fallible and error-prone men in Brooklyn, NY is nothing short of blasphemous.  So why do Watchtower apologists defend the Watchtower such embarrassingly poor arguments like these?  Because they must have absolute unquestionable submission to whatever is put in print by the Watchtower.  

But I didn't write this blog necessarily to refute one of the extremely few Watchtower apologists who write and dialogue on the internet; its to offer an argument that could prove useful for anyone who wishes to witness to a JW. Consider using John 6:68 in asking a JW who this text is applied to in context.  This question alone could prove effecting in getting JW's to "examine the Scriptures to see if these things are so." (Acts 17:11)  

My second appearance on the Theopologetics podcast discussing the JW's "two-class" theology.

From the Theopologetics website:

Episode 50 of the Theopologetics Podcast is now available! Mike Felker from The Apologetic Front joins me once again to discuss the Jehovah's Witnesses, this time focusing in particular on their "two-class" doctrine of life in the eternal state. This episode contains part 1 of the interview; see episode 51, "144,000," for part 2.

Sye Ten Bruggencate vs. Justin Schieber on Yahweh or Myweh

Recently, Sye appeared on Justin's podcast to discuss presuppositional apologetics.  It appeared that this particular episode was arranged in order to discuss Justin's lecture on presuppositional apologetics.  However, while some of this was discussed, the two spent more time debating the issues in general.

I must say that this is one of the best encounters i've heard on this topic; probably as good, if not better, than Sye's first interaction with Paul Baird on unbelievable.  This was a fast paced contrasting of positions in a near hour of non-stop cross examination from both sides.  While I thought that Sye kept his demeanor at a very patient level, I was a bit disappointed with Justin's performance as he seemed annoyed and frustrated throughout the exchange.

Sye has also informed me that Justin's recording was edited.  I have yet to listen to the unedited version, but will make it available once Sye grants permission or posts in publicly.  At the least, there is supposed to be a transcript of the unedited recording forthcoming.

To listen to the "edited" version of the exchange, go HERE.

Two JW elders confronted

In this video, an atheist confronts two JW elders regarding the so-called "secret elder's manual."  If you want to know the background about this manual (the newest was recently released), a simple google search of "Watchtower elder's manual" should bring up some hits, as well as the option to download (do so at your own risk).  Or you could ask a JW in your local area, but you may get a blank stare.

I'm not advocating the atheist's approach, nor am I drawing a conclusion from this video.  I post it here for two reasons:

1. A video confrontation like this is extremely rare and i'm surprised these elders agreed to it.

2. For educational purposes.  Watch the full video and draw your own conclusions in the matter.

However you look at it, this was a very interesting encounter to say the least.  If these elders agreed to do an interview regarding this issue, I would very much enjoy the same 15 minutes to confront them about the Watchtower's "two-class theology."  If anyone has any ideas as to how I could approach some JW's regarding such an opportunity, please share your ideas.  I have no intention of embarrassing any JW, but to video-tape an interview whereby the viewer can listen to both sides interact and come to their own conclusions on the matter.