Teaching. Equipping. Defending
Wow, Mike has been wearing the same shirt for days. This is getting gross.
Interesting question. Considering all the misconceptions of who Jesus is, I would point them to the Org. so they can find out who the real Jesus is. Mike, you may simply tell people to read the Bible, but in reality, we need people to teach us. That is what the Org. does. (Acts 8:30,31)
lol, actually it would be weeks that I was wearing the shirt! Sorry to disappoint, but I shot all those videos on the same day ;-)Anyway, in order to find out who Jesus is, I don't say, "come to my church, and you'll find out." Instead, I say, read the Bible for yourself and prayerfully seek for the truth. In no way does this diminish the need to congregate (Heb. 10:25) and hear the Bible taught. But you place yourself in a difficult spot of you claim that you can't know the truth unless you go to a particular church. For what would happen if every church taught that you "need" their church to know the truth? There would then be no objective way to identify the truth. So then you'd be back to square one: you can only know if church X or church Y is teaching the truth by testing what they say in light of Scripture (Acts 17:11). And that's what i've done with the Watchtower, and they've shown to be unreliable guides to Scriptural truth and have grossly exaggerated what the authority of the church is meant to be, that is, "believe anything and everything we tell you without question." And I can quote-mine till the cows come home with WT quotes to support this.
Well, things change, understandings change. Has this Org. made mistakes, yes. Does that make them false prophets, no.It should be considered that Isreal were once the 'only' true religion on Earth. Why should it be a surprise that there is only one now? No other church claims this because membership would drop. With JW's, it doesn't.
No, "mistakes" don't make them false prophets: false prophecies makes them false prophets (Deut. 18:20-22).Secondly, there is only one true religion on earth today; and it is made up of true followers of Christ. But there lies your problem: you are trying to find salvation in an organization. I am trying to find it in a person (John 14:6).And there are other churches who claims this: Mormonism and Catholicism. Both rely on an external authority in defining what the truth is. And you are absolutely correct in that church membership would drop if they all started acting like the Watchtower, and rightly so! If my pastor this sunday said, "Without me, you can't have accurate Bible knowledge. And from now on, you all need to listen and obey anything and everything I tell you. There is no other channel of communication God is using on earth except me." I would run for the hills.
In a recent survey, a question was asked to members of different religions. 80% of JW's polled believe they are the only road to salvation, 23% more than the next group. Unlike most of the groups, these ones don't believe blindly, but through study and faith, they believe. (Acts 17:11)Perhaps the biggest problem amongst all religions, including 'christianity' is that you believe all of this is about YOUR salvation. However, JW's and the Bible teach that it is about Jehovah's sanctification is the most important. (Lev 22:32; Mt 6:9)I am not finding salvation in an Org. I am in a group that shows salvation is at the very most, secondary.
That poll only suggests that relativism and postmodernism has heavily soaked the fabric of "evangelicalism," to which I have no problem in denouncing. I never said that your faith is blind. However, as long as the WT cites a scripture with their view, JW's will believe it is the correct interpretation of that text without question. Yes, JW's have reasons for what they believe and are equipped to make a defense. However, they can't question the very doctrines that they try to defend. To say that "all of this" is about MY salvation is simply not true. And furthermore, this is just a red herring to take the discussion off-track. And yes, you are finding salvation in the org, because you believe that salvation can only be found in the org. That is, unless you are going to admit that non-JW's can be saved outside of the org?
I believe Martin Luther quite possibly was of the anointed. I believe William Tyndale, the same. I could name many that were not part of this Org. who are saved.You speak of defending doctrines we don't questions. I believe in questioning a doctrine. But because I don't understand an explanation doesn't mean it is wrong. I find salvation through Christ, who is in turn using the Christian Congregation preaching and teaching the Kingdom of Jehovah.You find salvation in meism. You know best and better than the rest. Wow, I'm a poet and didn't know it.
Didn't Luther and Tyndale believe in...the Trinity?
Russell believed in the pyramids and I believe he is of the anointed.
"You speak of defending doctrines we don't questions. I believe in questioning a doctrine. But because I don't understand an explanation doesn't mean it is wrong."Have you questioned the doctrine of some components of blood being acceptable for medical use but not others, in light of Acts 15? Have you questioned that Jesus "evidently" meant something completely different about the "generation" that he previously "evidently" meant about it?"I find salvation through Christ, who is in turn using the Christian Congregation preaching and teaching the Kingdom of Jehovah."I keep asking Jehovah's Witnesses for evidence, for proof of their claim that Jesus is using the Watch Tower Society in any way, shape or form. Thus far no Jehovah's Witness has been willing to step forward with such proof. I'm told that it's "abundantly clear", but I'm still waiting for the evidence to be presented.What I do find interesting is the admission by the Watch Tower Society that the "faithful and discreet slave" in was declaring in 1878 that Christ had returned in 1874 and that he (Charles Russell) was waiting for Armageddon to break out in 1914. Russell quit his business and started printing and distributing tracts, boldly making the claim that Christ had returned.Yet, Jehovah's Witnesses are now taught by the "faithful and discreet slave" (no longer Charles Russell but a disparate group represented by the Governing Body) that Christ actually returned in 1914 and selected them in 1919.Here's the problem. Jesus said in Luke 12;"35 “Let YOUR loins be girded and YOUR lamps be burning, 36 and YOU yourselves be like men waiting for their master when he returns from the marriage, so that at his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him. 37 Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching! Truly I say to YOU, He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. 38 And if he arrives in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them thus, happy are they!"It's not every often you'll see this quoted in the Watchtower magazine, but this is the parallel to Matthew 24:45-47. If Jesus is saying that he'd be expected the "slave" to be waiting and ready to open the door to his knock, how could the Watch Tower Society be this "slave", or "faithful steward", when they weren't waiting and ready for his knock in 1914? They believed he'd already returned in 1874.Don't believe me? Check the "Proclaimers" book, from around page 46.So, please provide the proof that the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses are the only, true Christian group chosen by Christ.Oh, and please provide me with scriptural proof that the issue of "Jehovah's universal sovereignty" is the most important issue in the Bible. I've never seen it.Thank you.
"Russell believed in the pyramids and I believe he is of the anointed."Pyramidology is an occult practice. Look it up.
Welcome back Mark Hunter. Before I continue, let me just say I have done a thorough study of the Society's past and I don't need to be lectured by you about what Russell taught or thought. I know what the Bible Students believed. First, pyramidology, as you know was dismissed by Rutherford in the late 20's. Technically, JW's never believed it. So again, because Russell thought it helped prove certain things, he promoted it with study of the Bible. He didn't create doctrine from the Pyramid.It wasn't unusual for people in that time period to think the Great Pyramid was something related to God's "plan". There were many religious people, including one particular Lutheran by the name of Joseph Seiss.You have the nerve to challenge a JW about pyramidology and yet you worship a pagan triad god. Please spare me. Second, Acts 15. You must be more specific in your question. However, to abstain from blood and use alternatives in surgery is cutting edge, no pun intended. It is especially helpful to most when there is no blood on supply. Here in the USA, it seems there is always a shortage. It is interesting that vs 29 of Acts 15 says "Good health to YOU!". It is proven effective and beneficial. Without JW's to help push the medical field along in this direction, perhaps there wouldn't be the advancement. Third, proof that the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses are the only, true Christian group chosen by Christ.Here are just a few: Base teachings on the Bible, use and publicize God’s name, we reflect God’s joyful personality, we base our conduct and their decisions on Bible principles, we are organized in the manner of the first-century Christian congregation, we are submissive to human governments and yet remain neutral, we are impartial in working “what is good toward all" and lastly, we are willing to suffer persecution for doing God’s will. If you need scriptures for those things, let me know. Fourth, scriptural proof that the issue of "Jehovah's universal sovereignty" is the most important issue in the Bible.As you well know it starts in Gen 3:1-5 where God's right to rule is challenged. Brought up in the book of Job by Satan again. And Jesus helped prove that a man would worship God out of love. (Prov 27:11) It is the proven theme of the Bible. I don't have a problem with you not seeing this, the Bible said many wouldn't. (2 Cor 3:16)
Why did you completely ignore this;"What I do find interesting is the admission by the Watch Tower Society that the "faithful and discreet slave" in was declaring in 1878 that Christ had returned in 1874 and that he (Charles Russell) was waiting for Armageddon to break out in 1914. Russell quit his business and started printing and distributing tracts, boldly making the claim that Christ had returned.Yet, Jehovah's Witnesses are now taught by the "faithful and discreet slave" (no longer Charles Russell but a disparate group represented by the Governing Body) that Christ actually returned in 1914 and selected them in 1919.[...]It's not every often you'll see this quoted in the Watchtower magazine, but this is the parallel to Matthew 24:45-47. If Jesus is saying that he'd be expected the "slave" to be waiting and ready to open the door to his knock, how could the Watch Tower Society be this "slave", or "faithful steward", when they weren't waiting and ready for his knock in 1914? They believed he'd already returned in 1874."Remember, it was during this time that Russell was basing his "Divine Plan of the Ages", as publicised in the "Studies in the Scriptures" (the Bible in topical form, according to Russell (modest)), on measuring pyramids. You expect me to believe that Jesus thought this was acceptable and thus chose Russell as the "faithful servant"?Let me take these 1 by 1;- Base teachings on the Bible, Hardly unique or special. However, which teachings in the Bible point to a North American publishing corporation being essential to mankind's salvation? Curious.- use and publicize God’s name,When was God's name ever Jehovah? Please do your research; no J or V in the Jewish alphabet may be a good place to start. No, Jehovah's Witnesses choose call God "Jehovah", end of story. - we reflect God’s joyful personality, What?!- we base our conduct and their decisions on Bible principles, No, you base your conduct and decisions on what the Governing Body tells you are Bible principles.- we are organized in the manner of the first-century Christian congregation, Really? The 1st century Christian congregations met in private homes. Do Jehovah's Witnesses?- we are submissive to human governments and yet remain neutral,Hardly proves Christ chose the Watch Tower Society in 1919. How neutral was Cornelius, by the way?- we are impartial in working “what is good toward all" Again, hardly proof of divine selection. Perhaps defining "what is good toward all" may help identify the uniqueness of JWs.- and lastly, we are willing to suffer persecution for doing God’s will.So are many Christians. Not proof of selection in 1919."Fourth, scriptural proof that the issue of "Jehovah's universal sovereignty" is the most important issue in the Bible.As you well know it starts in Gen 3:1-5 where God's right to rule is challenged. Brought up in the book of Job by Satan again. And Jesus helped prove that a man would worship God out of love. (Prov 27:11) It is the proven theme of the Bible. I don't have a problem with you not seeing this, the Bible said many wouldn't. (2 Cor 3:16)"That's it? You cite a couple of verses in Gen 3 (that don't mention "Jehovah's universal sovereignty") reference Job (the whole story was about man being willing to serve God regardless of suffering, not about "Jehovah's universal sovereignty") and a completely unrelated verse in Proverbs about acting wisely? This is your proof that "Jehovah's universal sovereignty" is the "proven theme of the Bible"?Well, maybe according to the Governing Body it is....I have to ask, when are you going to pick a name?
Sorry, I missed this;Perhaps the best place to establish proof that Christ choose the Watch Tower Society/Jehovah's Witnesses is to start with the year the Governing Body claim that it happened; 1919.Perhaps starting by proving that Christ made his choice in 1919 would go a long way to convincing the likes of me, Mike and other Christian sceptics as to the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's only true religious group on earth.
Listen Mark, I am not trying to convince you. You obviously have the same resources I do to find out what is true and what is not. The global preaching proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that JW'S have the truth. Now, I know Mike doesn't believe this is needed, or that Jesus meant anything other than events to take place in the 1st Century. I however, and many other believe it was a foregleam of something to come. If you go by 2 Tim 3:1-5 I believe it points to the World we see now. And if Jesus meant anything more than just events in his day, then I believe it is right now. (Matt 24:14)In 1919 there wasn't even a Governing Body set up in the Org.But let's discuss this briefly. Russell called out that something big would happen in 1914. He thought the anointed would be called to Heaven. Didn't happen, but WW1 did happen. A lot thought that was the end of the World. It was however the end of the World as they knew it.JW's in 1918 were banned in Canada and were dealt harshly with elsewhere. The brothers who we would now constitute the governing body at the time were imprissoned wrongfully in May of 1918. The Org. was nearly dead. But March 25 1919 the GB is released from prison exonerated. It was at that point that we were freed from Babylonish captivity completely. Just watch the 1920's go by as JW's are refined and preaching became the main focus.
"The global preaching proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that JW'S have the truth. Now, I know Mike doesn't believe this is needed, or that Jesus meant anything other than events to take place in the 1st Century."Unless i'm misunderstanding you here, where did I say or imply that global preaching isn't needed???As to the first century, you are confusing fulfillment with application. That is, while Matt. 24 had its fulfillment in the 1st century, it is certainly applicable today. For instance, the gospel (not 1914, I might add) was preached to the known inhabited lands far and wide in the 1st century. And in following that example, Christians should seek to do the same. But in no way, shape, or form is Matt. 24 a formula for identifying "true Christianity" based on how many time cards a particular group turns in.
Anonymous, it sounds like you need to go an convince yourself that 1) Christ was in the business of picking one group on earth to represent him in 1919 (again, I'd love scriptural proof of that; I do have the same resources as you and I sure can't find such proof), 2) that the issue of "Jehovah's sovereignty" is the very "good news" Christ talks about in Matthew 24:14.I think what's happened is you've allowed the propaganda of the Governing Body, where they take isolated scriptures and apply them to themselves or to conventions held in the 1930s as proof of "divine selection". However, a simple, unbiased reading of the New Testament shows that what Jehovah's Witnesses obsess about, namely "Jehovah's universal sovereignty, Jehovah's name and the "faithful and discreet slave" class" have no similarity to 1st century Christians.For example;Luke 24:46 and he said to them: “In this way it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, 47 and on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem, 48 YOU are to be witnesses of these things. What were Christians to preach about? "Jehovah's universal sovereignty" or Christ dead, resurrection and forgiveness of sins?And what did 1st century Christians preach about?Acts 2: 38 Peter [said] to them: “Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.1 Cor 2: 2 For I decided not to know anything among YOU except Jesus Christ, and him impaled.Please show me one example from the New Testament whereby the good news was centred on "Jehovah's universal sovereignty". I'm trying to get you to actually see what the Bible says, rather than what the Governing Body tells you the Bible says.You say the Watch Tower Society was "refined" in the 1920s. Was that when Rutherford boldly preached that millions then living will never die? That 1925 was more firmly established in scripture than 1914, and that these dates weren't his dates but God's?As Mike says, Matthew 24:14 is not the key identifying mark of "true Christianity", no matter what the Watchtower magazine says, especially when the group making that claim do not preach the truth. Remember, the truth IS JESUS!How about taking 237 references to Jesus as Lord in the New Testament and changing the text of the Bible to place the focus on Jehovah? Would that be a sign of true Christianity, of having "the truth"?I, too, believe we're living in the last days, just as Paul did when he wrote to Timothy (notice he tells Timothy to "turn away" from those having a form of godly devotion; Paul and Timothy were living in the last days, just as we are). Does that mean I'm in "the truth"?For your own sake, anonymous, sit down, open your Bible and simply read it, asking God to guide you to truth FREE from the filter of the Watch Tower Society.
Post a Comment