Teaching. Equipping. Defending
well Mike this is sadly typical of you. True proof you do not read your bible and are showing support always to the opposers. So are you supporting non christian views ? Jesus stated "not even eating with such a man" . Was Jesus wrong ? Is it infact ok to be homosexual ? Is it ok to allow anything and anyone into the congregations ? Yet then turn around and state -how could this child abuser have stayed in that congregation so long ? You don't care if these people are acting as Christians or not. As long as they are attacking Jehovah's people - that is all that matters to you and your apologist friends. You don't even care if you are not in agreement with the other apologists = as long as you can attack us together.... How warm and fuzzy you must feel.
Truthsolace, can you explain shunning to us from the Bible, please?
@TruthSolace do you believe it is wrong to misrepresent the beliefs of others? Would Jesus have done this? I would invite you to call me and talk to me about all of this, provide Scripture to support your views on shunning, and share with me why you think this is all a correct representation of what I actually believe. 678-208-9153 or Skype: theapologeticfront
No Mike, I am sure my husband would have a problem with me phoning a very cute young man (for any reason)ESPECIALLY one I have talked to plenty already- but I will see if he wants to call you. I am sure he will say no for such obvious reasons - our brothers have given You personally all the info and time they could- they will tell You exactly what I would. You know what we believe about disfellowshipping.I don't need at all to debate it - the scriptures speak for themselves. Do not just refer to the "Christian" scriptures either to get your answers( Look to the bible as a whole to know Jehovah's feelings about those who turn their backs on his laws) - though 1 Corinthians 5 is really clear " In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.” Adulterers etc.. used to be executed - yet we are now given more time to be forgiven and come back to Jehovah through Jesus. So that would make disfellowshipping a mere slap on the wrist in comparison- no ??? Your support of anyone who goes against God's laws - isn't about Jehovah's people - it is about you personally not following the scriptures. You don't answer my questions so I wont answer yours just for the love of endless debate- you already know MY answers to your questions. I wrote on my blog about my feeling about Apologists in general. I personally have said enough and won't be coming back to this page for your answers. ( I do hope you know the time WE as Jehovah's people have taken for you was out of genuine love. I will leave it at that.)Solace
@Truthsolace, if your brothers have "given me personally all the info and time they could" and that "they will tell you exactly what I would," then why did you bother answering at all? You don't have to call me, as I understand your reasons. And to me, it doesn't matter who calls me, your husband or both of you. I'm here to talk to any JW personally that is willing to have a fair and respectful exchange. I'm not here for personal gain, but to spread the saving gospel and further the kingdom.
noo, i didn't come back=? "saving gospel and further the kingdom" ? hmmm Hay I have an Idea - why don't you right here and now Just explain openly1 Cor 5 and why you think disfellowshipping is wrong based on the bible as a whole.Because clearly - us (Jehovah's Witnesses) disfellowshipping and lovingly reinstating people back into the congregations after they have cleaned up theirlives - is wrong in "your view." (though not in the bible's view.)So why don't you just answer my questions openly. Taking the bible as a whole and explain what God is trying to tell us in 1 Cor chapter 5 ?That is just one scripture - surely someone who is willing to answer phone calls to anyone seeking spiritual understanding can answer it.
I appreciate you writing back, but I just don't have the time to involve myself in endless dialogues with nameless and faceless people that i'll never know anything about beyond a keyboard. But i'll answer your question just to explain my position. I never said that I disagree with disfellowshipping. I simply disagree with the extent to which the Watchtower takes it in their policies. 1 Cor. 5 absolutely talks about disfellowshipping, but only within the context of "so-called brothers if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolator, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler, not even to eat with such a one."This is referring to people currently within the congregation, and not in reference to those who have left the congregation; especially those who have apostasized based on doctrinal issues. For instance, a JW would very wrongly be shunning someone who left the org based on their disagreements with 1914. Thus, to use 1 Cor. 5 as a proof-text for the Watchtower's shunning policies is to go beyond what the Scripture declares. Like I said, I really don't have time to go into a lot of depth here and have endless exchanges. So if you want further details, we can talk on the phone or through Skype.
No that is exactly IT Mike. The only reason I posted a comment on THIS "post" is because of your endless contradiction.You love to say - you are Christian and honestly asking Jehovah's Witnesses questions to get real answers. That is fine but when you willfully support people who have been disfellowshipped for biblical reasons - that is a contradiction. I personally had to openly make a point of. Were these boys who you are wanting to support so much - disfellowshipped because of 1914 ???Really is that the purpose of this documentary you are recommending people support ? If you (meaning anyone) do not agree with the doctrinal teaching of 1914 and the Watchtower why would someone stay ?I know a lot of people who have walked away and do not go to the Kingdom hall anymore for many personal reasons - 1914 not being a big one. They still communicate with their family etc. Either You believe Jehovah is backing our Organization for all of the MANY reasons (too many to list) or you don't. For someone to be disfellowshipped for that, takes a lot (and don't give me some example of one guy who second hand info you trust) - just like the examples in the scriptures of apostasy- those ones were removed. My point in saying anything on this post - was because of Your contradictions and continued attack on Jehovah's people. If you are supporting the people making that documentary and asking others to do so - maybe you should explain first - that you do agree with disfellowshipping and explain to your readers- if these people are in fact Christians now and why they were disfellowshipped. Also if you no longer want to discuss anything on here - why not remove the comment option. I am simply commenting...
@truthsolace. Its as if my response went in one ear and out the other, which is why I am very hesitant to spend much time in the comment sections discussing this. I'll tell you what. I'll do a video on 1 Cor. 5 and show what the TEXT says about disfellowshipping and how it should be properly played out. And anyone will be able to openly show why they believe my examination is incorrect. Honestly, I don't know what else I could do. I want to be fair and I will always leave the comments open for accountability reasons as I want to make sure the information I provide is as accurate as possible. And this is why I provide a phone number as well, so that people have the opportunity to personally confront me on these issues.
It can't go in my ear - as i am reading. You* miss the point and I don't really care about any video.I care that you are supporting apostates and people disfellowshipped for biblical reasons which to me is an attack.I care about THAT for many reasons - one being that it is a contradiction to many things You have personally spoken of in the past.How you act like your ONLY goal is to help people understand Christianity properly when you are- so clearly confused.You are making a big deal over 5% of the people disfellowshipped EVER.Only 5% approximately from what I can tell have been removed for disagreeing with doctrine.Most people who don't agree simply walk away. Most people who are disfellowshipped are for Biblical reasons.Those are always people who want to continue to sin and go to the Kingdom hall at the same time.Those who are removed for disagreeing with the Watchtower - would have had to do some really drastic things LIKEtrying to make others in the congregation leave for those reasons - being openly and willfully in disagreement in the congregation. It would takethem doing a lot to disrupt the congregation in order for them to be removed ! So you disagreeing with that is simply tooo bad for you.You making a point out of it as if it is something that happens ALL the time is a LIE !To someone who does not know much about Jehovah's people this would come across as something we do often.IT is Not.You are therefor nit picking about somethings that happened that *YOU were personally not there to Witness - SO how can You make a video about something you really know Nothing about - am i making any sense Yet ??? YOU can not personally talk about people being disfellowshipped for not agreeing IF you were not there to Witness it = that my friend would be UNChristian !
Also - just to clarify so we don't have any misunderstanding which I am sure we will anyways.. When I say 5% non biblical reasons -I do not mean I believe they are Non biblical as I believe they are for Apostasy - I am referring to what you would consider un biblical.
@truthsolace;How much research have you actually done, thus allowing you to boldly make the following claims;"Most people who don't agree simply walk away. Most people who are disfellowshipped are for Biblical reasons......Those who are removed for disagreeing with the Watchtower - would have had to do some really drastic things LIKEtrying to make others in the congregation leave for those reasons - being openly and willfully in disagreement in the congregation. It would takethem doing a lot to disrupt the congregation in order for them to be removed !"Ok, let's say someone doesn't agree with the Watchtower's current teaching on the "generation" (ie. that Jesus evidently meant a generation spanned, er...generations). How easy, or logical, would it be for them to "simply walk away"?What if the only friends they have are other JWs? What if all of their family, including their spouse, is/are JWs?Could they "simply" walk away?You then claim that a person would only be disfellowshipped for doing some "really drastic". You then qualify what would be classified as "really drastic" trying to make others leave the congregation.What if, however, a person had "simply walked away", but the elders continued to phone them, pop in on them uninvited, until the person felt compelled to allow the elders to sit with them, asking them their reasons for "simply" walking away?What if, during such a visit, the person confided in the elders as to their reasons for "simply" walking away, and as a direct result, the elders convene a judicial hearing on the grounds of apostasy because the person had revealed to the elders that fact that they don't agree with everything the Watchtower teaches, in particular the "generation"?What if, during the judicial hearing, the two witnesses brought in to testify against the person who "simply" walked away are the two elders who paid the aforementioned visit?What if the person who "simply" walked away is disfellowshipped, and thereafter, shunned by their friends and even close family members, all because they didn't agree with an erroneous, ever-changing Watchtower doctrine and confided such to two elders?If you don't believe such things happen, be sure to visit this blog - http://deathorobedience.blogspot.com where the person has audio recorded every single discussion they had with the congregation elders, including the subsequent judicial hearing and appeal committee hearing.Perhaps once you've done that you'll be better positioned to make commentary on people who choose to simply walk away.
Mark are you disfellowshipped ? Also I have been part of this Organization for over 20 years and I know people all over the world and some who have lived at the Watchtower headquarters for upwards of 10 years at a time. I think I have a really good understanding of what is going on. I have also personally been To the Watchtower headquarters and to many Bethels. I have firsthand info. For all I know the stories you have recorded and are passing on as fact could be coming from people who spend most of their lives in a padded room in an asylum. You are believing their stories and they could be doing un nameable things on the side. You have one sided stories and you go out of your way to pass them off as fact. You go out of your way over and over to show the tiny % of second hand accounts where people say Only their side of a story.Your only AGENDA is to discredited Jehovah's people = that is why my Conversation is not on Your blog- My conversation is with MIKE.About why Mike is supporting these people Not YOU.I honestly don't care what you think. You are clearly serving Satan's purpose and have nothing good to add at all.
"Mark are you disfellowshipped ?"No. I choose to walk away. Although it wasn't "simple"."Also I have been part of this Organization for over 20 years and I know people all over the world and some who have lived at the Watchtower headquarters for upwards of 10 years at a time."I'm not entirely sure what this proves.Also, where is your personal relationship with Jesus, per John 17:3? You mentioned an Organisation. What has an organisation to do with salvation or an approved relationship with your Heavenly Father?"For all I know the stories you have recorded and are passing on as fact could be coming from people who spend most of their lives in a padded room in an asylum. You are believing their stories and they could be doing un nameable things on the side. You have one sided stories and you go out of your way to pass them off as fact."Well, for starters I didn't record anything. I wasn't even in the room!Also, are you refusing to even listen to the recordings, citing outlandish ad hominem attacks against people you've no knowledge of? As it turns out, I do personally know the people involved and your fears over their personal integrity are unfounded."You go out of your way over and over to show the tiny % of second hand accounts where people say Only their side of a story."Actually, as far as my memory serves me, this is the first, maybe second time, I've mentioned these accounts.As for only one side of the story being accounted, that isn't very accurate is it? Bearing in mind that the Watch Tower Society is a publishing corporation whose sole reason for being is to print books and magazine stating their beliefs, doctrines and "managed" history (1914, for example), one or two people citing their personal experience within said Society isn't unbalanced. Simply read a few Watchtower magazine articles to get the "other side" of the story."Your only AGENDA is to discredited Jehovah's people"I'm sorry, I don't follow what you're saying. My agenda is to show that the Governing Body's claims that Jehovah's Witnesses "have" the "truth" are not valid. In what way does that discredit Jehovah's people?"I honestly don't care what you think. You are clearly serving Satan's purpose and have nothing good to add at all."That's ok. It's clear you don't care what Mike thinks either as you seem to completely ignore what he actually says in his replies to you.As for serving Satan, that's a fairly bold accusation. I trust that Jesus Christ will open your heart to who the truth is. That's all I'm interested in.
@truthsolace, your responses to myself and Mark have certainly confirmed my decision in not pursuing an in-depth conversation with you here. If we were talking in person, you would not be able to get away with the things you've said. In addition, you would have to answer direct questions, something to which you have avoided here, since you "don't care what we think" and you completely and totally dismiss things like audio recordings; evidence that somehow seems to work in the court of law.
"dave a jew" - as spoken in Spanglish by Cesar Millan aka the dog whisperer translated into English = Deja vuMike I was not at all wanting to answer Marks injections of extra questions I was talking to you about this video -period. You were not answering my questions either. i swear i have had this conversation before.No I am not having it with you Mark - because that conversation would go on for days.To me the answer is simple This work could not be happening worldwide the way it is without Jehovah and Jesus backing it !NO - WAY not a chance - no little stories about Apostates and how you/they say they were treated will change that fact.I could give many stories of people I personally know who left for the same reason and "those things" you say happened to others never happened to them. I could also tell thousands of stories of people who's lives were saved and given meaning for the first time by becoming Witnesses. The Fact remains - IT could not happen this way worldwide without that backing - period !We are at the END - We are the only ones fulfilling the scriptures worldwide. If you do not believe we are at the End maybe you should ask yourselves. What do I really know about the ( U.N.'s New World Order ) and what are they up to right now ?What do I personally know about GMO crops and how they are killing people worldwide and if Just that ONE thing alone wasn't stopped and fixed by God - who is the only one who can Now fix it " No flesh would be saved". ?What do I personally know about the upcoming possible War with Iran ?What do I personally know about how serious this Oil spill in the Gulf is and how it is going to effect my life personally very shortly ?I stopped talking with you Mike over a month ago for the same reason -I too was to busy, I was spending time talking with people who honestly wanted to know the Truth.99% of our ministry is done face to face and if you lived down the street of even remotely close by -I would stop in and talk with you.I personally am not a fan of talking on the phone - I like to talk to people face to face - so that is what I usually do.I explained why i commented on this post - I know what Mark has to say -that is why I said what I did. I have said nothing at all to you I would not have said to your face -Nothing.I was just questioning your motives. I never said I did not care what you had to say Mike - that was said to Mark - ok. I am sorry if I have personally offended either of you. that is all I have to say = bye
@truthsolace, for what its worth, I appreciate that you have taken the time at all to visit my blog, and more importantly, to share your thoughts. I am very much a believer in open and public dialogue, though I don't always have the time to engage in it. That's why I leave the comments open, so that the honest viewer can view both sides and come to their conclusions. I do hope you'll stop by again and continue to leave your thoughts. And you haven't offended me in the least. I just strongly disagree with you :-)
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