UPDATE

Hopefully this post won't be too long, but I just wanted to share a few things as it relates to this site as well as my personal life.  First, I'm no longer going to be posting on this site.  I have a lot of ideas and Blogger simply cannot accommodate to these ideas.  I chose Wordpress because of its vast array of options.  Though its still in the works, you can view it HERE.  I canceled the domain here and the new one will simply be apologeticfront.com.  Once I get finished setting everything up, I hope to begin regular blogging once again.

What new ideas do I have?  For the longest time, i've wanted to start a podcast.  While everyone seems to have one these days, the fact that I have somewhat of an audience shows that some might be interested in listening to me rather than reading.  Personally, I simply have little time for reading blogs anymore and i'm sure others can relate.  Its so much easier to plug up my mic and yap away.  I don't know what the podcast will be like, but it will probably be very informal and involve very little production.  We'll see what happens.

Next, i'm very excited to announce that i'm now a student at REFORMED THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY ATLANTA. This is something i've been wanting to do for a very long time but always had other priorities in the way.  To make a long story short, God has provided for me in some profound ways.  Just a year ago I was touring the country in my band, and now I work a full time corporate job and completely self-sufficient financially (as the Lord has provided).  And being single as well, seminary was a no brainer.  So why am I going to seminary?  To be better used for the Kingdom.  I don't have any pastoral ambitions per se as i'm more interested in academics.  We'll see what happens from here.

Last, carm.org has recruited me as a writer for their site.  I'm very excited for this opportunity as CARM is one of the largest Christian apologetic websites out there.  While I don't endorse everything that CARM does, I share in their primary vision to equip and defend the Christian faith.  But this is an outlet that I simply couldn't have with my current writings.  CARM has thousands of visitors a day and this is a chance for me to make a big impact with my writings.  I'll be linking to my articles as they get posted.  My first such article can be found HERE and you can read my CARM bio HERE.  My primary focus with CARM is to develop their JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SECTION.

Other than that, please go to apologeticfront.com and SUBSCRIBE!

"Full" debate with a Jehovah's Witness "Letusreason1234" on the two class theology

Unfortunately, Letsureason backed out of the debate half way through without any notice.  I was really hoping we'd make it through to the end, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a JW would act this way when 99.9 percent of them are nameless and faceless on the internet.  Anyway, i've posted what we did of the debate, which I hope to be useful to some people.  If you watch or listen until the end, i'll provide a short post-debate commentary.

You can watch the debate HERE

You can listen to the debate HERE

A helpful evangelism tip for engaging Mormons

Anyone who engages Mormons will understand how difficult it can be.  Part of the problem is in getting them to admit how radically different their religion is from Christianity.  While they are willing to admit a "difference," it is difficult to emphasize the contrast.  In some respects, they will try to make it sound as if they are just like you, but with some important "restored" elements like the book of Mormon.  

Whether you are talking about monotheism, salvation by faith alone, and other contrasting doctrines to Mormonism; Mormon missionaries may say, "Oh, we believe that too."  It may not be inaccurate to posit the fact that postmodernism has seeped into the fabric of Mormonism.  As a result, you may not hear a statement of, "our church is right and your's is wrong."  But this is exactly what you want them to say and agree with.  Such will allow for everyone's cards to be on the table.  

With that said, Keith Walker has posted a very helpful ARTICLE.  The article displays a list of quotations from Mormon sources whereby Christianity and Mormonism are starkly contrasted.  Here is what I would recommend doing the next time you engage a Mormon; start the conversation off by showing them these quotations and getting them to admit that, for example, "all of [your] creeds are an abomination, and [you] are corrupt."  This way, you'll be able to ask the question, "Please show me which beliefs I have that are an abomination and let's see what the Scriptures say about them."  

Many of these Mormon sources are easily obtainable.  It would prove useful to have them ready whenever a Mormon missionary knocks on your door.  It will allow you to cut right to the chase and perhaps open the door to present the gospel. 

Where can I get a Watchtower CD Library?

If you're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses or at least on your way to becoming one, you will not be able to obtain the CD Library from them.  The Watchtower CD Library is an excellent tool for those interested in researching the Jehovah's Witnesses.  It contains almost the full array of Watchtower publications dating back to the 1950's with a very good search engine and other features.

The problem is, most do not know where to get a Watchtower CD.  While some may have moral or legal reservations in obtaining this resource (there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the installation process), each person must decide for themselves as to whether they should continue in installing the CD on their computer.

But for those interested, the CD is available for purchase HERE.

***disclaimer***

For any JW's that desire to provide a moral lecture in the comments, don't bother, as I will not be responding and will have your comments deleted.

Some helpful "techy" stuff for apologists

Like some of you I know, I am a person who is always looking for ways to maximize ways to learn.  Recently, I started listening to all my podcasts on double speed because I simply was not able to keep up.  I'm not sure all ipods have this option, but iphone certainly does and most likely the newer ipod touches.  At first, this was difficult.  But it didn't take long for me to get very used to it.  Now i'm able to keep up in listening to about 10 different podcasts weekly.

Another was a flashcard app that helped me to start learning Greek.  I think the app is just called "flashcards" and costs around $2.99 in the app store.  This app is great because it keeps up with what you know really well, sort of well, and not well at all.  Its basically a flashcard quiz system.  On my lunch breaks i'm able to spend up to 20 minutes daily going through my Greek vocabulary, grammar rules, and translation exercises.  If anyone wants to learn Greek and has an iphone/ipod/ipad, give me a buzz and i'll show you what you'll need to do.  If I can do it, you can do it!

Last, I discovered a really cool app in the Mac app store (not itunes store).  Its called Speak It!.  Its $4.99 but it is able to convert any text into speech.  And not only that, but it can convert it to an audio file so you can play it on your ipod or whatever.  This has been helpful for me because i'm subscribing to too many blogs and downloading too many pdf article that I simply don't have time to read.  In addition, its cutting into my time that I could be using to read books.  So what I do now is I copy and paste whatever blog article or pdf that i'm interested in into the "Speak it!" app and convert to an audio file.  The only downside is, you can only convert to an audio file with a maximum of 1,000 words at a time.  But this is fairly simple to do, since most word processing programs give you word counts.

Feel free to leave in the comments any ideas, advise, or whatever it is you do to maximize your learning in the area of theology, apologetics, etc.

1st rebuttal in my debate with Letusreason1234

See Letusreason1234's opening statement HERE.

This is my first rebuttal in our debate:

From the brilliant atheistic mind of Mr. Loftus

Mr. Loftus WRITES

Why is it Christians cannot agree to the point where they have condemned each other to hell and/or slaughtered each other because of doctrinal differences that other Christians don't think are essential for salvation? My answer is that Christianity is man made, and as such, doctrinal differences are due to different human ways of understanding the Bible. There is no divine mind behind the Bible, otherwise God should have communicated his will much better than he supposedly did. That's the major reason why there is no doctrinal Christian unity. These different doctrinal understandings continue to be used by denominational leaders to differentiate between Christianities for financial gain and power. Christian, what's your answer?

That does it.  I'm giving up Christianity.  Brilliant objection, Mr. Loftus...just brilliant.

But wait.  Everyone disagrees with each other's worldview...so i'll give up my worldview!  Or maybe just the concept of "worldview" altogether, since no one can agree. But then again, many disagree with each other's view of reality.  Perhaps reality isn't real?  So i'll give up epistemology too! And logic, who knows anything about that?

Mr. Loftus, the universe just got a little bit more intelligent because of your objection, and I applaud you for bringing the universe such honor and glory.  Praise science, and praise atheism.

Debate with Letusreason1234: My opening statement

As mentioned over a month ago, I will be debating a JW who goes by the nick, Letusreason1234.  However, we couldn't seem to agree on the method by which we'd approach this debate so we decided to do this on YouTube via video responses.  Assuming the full debate will be completed, i'll make an audio download as well as a full length video of the debate.  Here is my opening:

Antitheism Presupposes Theism

THIS is a very interesting post from JAMES ANDERSON which appears to be an elaboration from THIS PAPER, which was recently released for public viewing.  Those interested in the Transcendental Argument for God's existence and possibly even the Ontological Argument will likely find this post as helpful as I did.

Review of the March 2012 Watchtower Study Edition

In this review, I focus primarily on Romans 8 and a unique interpretation provided by the Watchtower as it relates to their "two class" theology.  I also discuss some other elements of interest in the same article.

You can watch the review HERE

You can listen to the review HERE

You can download the March 2012 Watchtower Study Edition HERE

On a side note, i'm very much considering doing a podcast in the near future.  The reason being, i'm realizing that far more people are out there who are just like me with little time to read and a lot of time to listen.  I've got the necessary equipment to do it, but my audio acoustics (as you can tell) are pretty awful in my current living situation.  But that is going to change soon, Lord willing (so long as my next place doesn't have hard wood floors and thin walls!).

Anyway, doing reviews of Watchtowers like this might make for a good podcast in addition to debates and dialogues. I'm just brainstorming out loud right now, so we'll see what happens.

Debate on "hell" now available!

From the Theopologetics Blog:

Episode 70 and Episode 71 of the Theopologetics Podcast is now available! Debate topic: "The punishment of the damned will actually be torment forever and ever." Hiram Diaz, creator of the Involuted Speculations blog and contributor at Grassroots Apologetics, affirms. Chris Date, host of the Theopologetics Podcast, denies. Moderated by Mike Felker of The Apologetic Front. 

Strangely, I had only received audience questions from the annihilationist perspective.  Therefore, I had to come up with the "audience questions" myself in challenging annihilationism.  Anyway, I hope you all enjoy this interaction and feel free to leave your comments!

What do you believe about hell?

In less than a week i'll be moderating a DEBATE on hell and I could really use some help from my readers.  At the end of the debate, there will be a Q&A period where i'll be asking each participant questions "from the audience."  That's you.  If you object to the traditional understanding of hell (conscious torment, etc.) or the conditionalist perspective (annihilationism, conditional punishment, etc.), I need questions from both sides.

If you would, please EMAIL your questions to me and perhaps you'll hear them read and answered in the debate!

I'm very excited to have been selected to moderate and I will certainly be posting the debate here on the blog once its uploaded.  Who knows, this may spark some interest on my part to delve deeper into this issue and refine my own views.

Are the Watchtower's predictions "hollow?"

Sometimes I wonder if the Governing Body remembers their own history.  But then again, i've come to expect them to be less than honest, which is quite unfortunate.  Though there might be some who would love nothing more than to have a "gotcha" moment in pointing out yet another less-than-honest statement by the Governing Body, I would much rather them demonstrate some humility.

Given the recent false prediction by Harold Camping, I was actually hoping the Governing Body would leave this one alone.  Otherwise, it would not be the first time they have applied a double standard in accusing others of making false predictions that didn't come to pass.

However, in the February 1, 2011 Watchtower on p. 25, the leaders in Brooklyn had this to say,

First of all, this statement is not completely accurate regarding Camping's prediction.  Like the Watchtower's pre-1914 predictions, Camping's was based upon his faulty interpretation of the Scriptures.  And as far as I know, Camping didn't claim any type of non-biblical divine revelation that God had personally given to him.  In fact, any claims to authority Camping would have made could only pale in comparison to what the Watchtower had and continues to claim for themselves.  The point is, the reader of the Watchtower may have gotten the impression that Camping just made up everything or had some type of inspired revelation from God.

Second, the prediction made by Camping is described as "hollow."  I agree.  The problem is, where did the Watchtower ever describe their own predictions in this manner?  At the very least, did the Watchtower ever apologize for their false predictions which resulted in a severe disappointment for many?  Consider only a few,

“The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914.” –The Watchtower July 15, 1924 p. 211

“Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection.” –Millions Now Living will Never Die  1920, p. 90 

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. -Awake! 1969 5/22 p. 15

Shortly, within our twentieth century, the “battle in the day of Jehovah” will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom. -The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah p. 216

The purpose of Awake! is stated clearly on page 4 of each issue: “This magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” Certainly such a magazine deserves as wide a distribution as possible in our house-to-house ministry! -Kingdom Ministry 10/93 p. 8

Could these false predictions be described as anything short of "hollow?"  If so, then where were they ever appropriately described as such?  If they weren't, then would such neglect be what one would expect from "God's organization?"

This is information that I would encourage some to share with their JW friends and family.  Do so with caution, humility, and love.  But never do so at the expense of the gospel and pointing to Christ as "the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)  Remember, your goal is not to create an ex-JW, but a Christ follower.

Upcoming Debate with a Jehovah's Witness

My JW friend Letusreason1234 has recently agreed to a formal debate with me.  The debate will be formulated a bit differently than most but the outcome will be the same.  That is, we will be exchanging our videos back and forth so that both sides can articulate the best possible arguments without being put on the spot.  However, there will be live cross examination.  But I think this style of debate will be a good example for those who don't think they can debate because they aren't good debaters.  Hopefully, the full debate will be posted by the end of the month.  It will be in both video and audio form.  The proposition and format will go as follows:

Proposition: There is only one class of Christians with one eternal hope

Affirmative: Mike Felker

Negative: Letusreason1234

Opening Statements (20 minutes each)

Rebuttals (12 minutes each)

Rebuttals (8 minutes each)

Cross examination round 1 (7 minutes each)

Cross examination round 2 (7 minutes each)

Rebuttals (10 minutes each)

Closing Statements (7 minutes each)

2nd discussion with JW "Letusreason1234" on the eternal hope of Christians

Like our FIRST DISCUSSION, this one will continue along the same lines in contrasting the Jehovah's Witness view with what I believe to be the biblical view of all Christians living forever on the new earth.

You can watch the discussion HERE

You can listen to the discussion HERE

What is the proper view of the Watchtower and its literature?

In the following Watchtower article, two viewpoints are contrasted.  The first is the improper view,

*** w64 9/15 p. 574 Experiencing Jehovah’s Love ***

APPRECIATION FOR THE TRUTH

Not all the persons I have known in the organization have maintained their appreciation for the truth. To illustrate this, I want to mention an experience I had while in the pilgrim service. I was in Philadelphia at the time, and, after I had given a talk, an elective elder who claimed to be a brother came up to me and said: “Brother Riemer, I got my Watchtower this morning. The only reason I read that Watchtower is to find out what you fellows in Brooklyn are trying to put over on us.” That was the spirit of some of the elective elders. They were causing splits in the congregations and in the work.

Contrast this improper view with what would be a proper view of the Watchtower in the very next paragraph,

*** w64 9/15 p. 574 Experiencing Jehovah’s Love ***

In contrast to the attitude of these elective elders was that of an elderly couple with whom I stayed on the outskirts of Richmond, Virginia. The brother went down to get the mail before breakfast, and when we had breakfast he said, “Brother Riemer, I got a new Watchtower this morning, and do you know the first thing that Ma and I do when we get that Tower? We kneel down before we take the wrapper off and ask Jehovah to make us worthy to see what the message is that Jehovah has for us. Now, before we take the wrapper off, will you kneel down and pray with us?” How different that elective elder was from this humble couple who appreciated Jehovah’s organization!

Is Watchtower literature simply "Bible study aids" or something more?  What is your view of Watchtower literature? Does your attitude and behavior reflect the improper view or the proper view?

(ht: 21Crosscheck21)

Discussion with a JW on the eternal hope of Christians

Recently, I had another discussion with a Jehovah's Witness on the eternal hope of Christians.  The Watchtower teaches that there will be a literal group of 144,000 anointed Jehovah's Witnesses who rule with Christ in heaven over the rest of Jehovah's Witnesses who will live on a paradise earth.  However, I believe in accordance with the Scriptures that all Christians will live forever on the new earth.

You can watch the interaction HERE

You can listen to the interaction HERE

Lord willing, we will be having more interactions like these in the near future.

Correcting a miscitation from my interaction with the JW

I finally got around to listening to the INTERACTION I had with the JW from the other day and was overall pleased with how it went.  I won't go into reviewing or offering much critique in this post as I would like the viewers to decide for themselves (at least for now anyway).

But I did notice a blunder I made at about 41:30 where I attempted a paraphrase of the following quote:

*** w57 5/1 p. 284 par. 14 Trust Your Proved, Faithful Brothers ***

Showing respect for Jehovah’s organization really resolves itself down to our attitude toward God’s visible channel and the trust that we place in our proved, faithful brothers. If we have become thoroughly convinced that this is Jehovah’s organization, that he is guiding and directing his people, then we shall not be unsettled by anything that happens. If something comes up that we do not understand we will wait patiently until it is made thoroughly clear to us. If we feel sure something is wrong we will ‘keep the commandment’ of our Father and take whatever theocratic steps are open to us and then wait on Jehovah. We will not ‘forsake our mother’s teaching’ by immediately beginning to criticize and find fault. We will realize that Jehovah knows what is going on in his organization, and if he is willing to permit it, who are we to insist it should be different? If we really have faith, we will know that if it is wrong he will straighten it out eventually, and we are far safer inside his organization even with these minor difficulties than we would be on the outside where only chaos and destruction await us.

What I paraphrased went something as follows: "If we come to believe that something the Watchtower teaches is false, then we should just believe what they say anyway."  Of course, the part in bold contradicts this and is consistent with what my JW friend said whereby one should keep quite about it and let Jehovah straighten it out.  While I think that there are still some significant theological and psychological disagreements that I have with the above, I didn't represent it accurately.

However, i'm kicking myself now because there is a quote that appears to be consistent with what I paraphrased that I wish I would have used:

*** w52 2/1 pp. 79-80 pars. 11-12 Jehovah’s Theocratic Organization Today ***

We must show our understanding in these matters, appreciating our relationship to the visible theocratic organization, remembering the fate of those like Korah and Achan and Saul and Uzziah and others who forgot the theocratic order. Are we assigned as individuals to bring forth the food for the spiritual table? No? Then let us not try to take over the slave’s duties. We should eat and digest and assimilate what is set before us, without shying away from parts of the food because it may not suit the fancy of our mental taste. The truths we are to publish are the ones provided through the discreet-slave organization, not some personal opinions contrary to what the slave has provided as timely food. Jehovah and Christ direct and correct the slave as needed, not we as individuals. If we do not see a point at first we should keep trying to grasp it, rather than opposing and rejecting it and presumptuously taking the position that we are more likely to be right than the discreet slave. We should meekly go along with the Lord’s theocratic organization and wait for further clarification, rather than balk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us and proceed to quibble and mouth our criticisms and opinions as though they were worth more than the slave’s provision of spiritual food. Theocratic ones will appreciate the Lord’s visible organization and not be so foolish as to pit against Jehovah’s channel their own human reasoning and sentiment and personal feelings. 

12 Now some may ask, Should we accept as from the Lord and true the food provided through the discreet slave, or should we withhold acceptance until we have proved it for ourselves? If we have gained our present understanding of the Bible by feeding at the table set by the slave, if we have been thereby freed from false doctrines and built up in the clean and undefiled worship of God and given a new world hope, we should have some confidence in the slave’s provisions. After being nourished to our present spiritual strength and maturity, do we suddenly become smarter than our former provider and forsake the enlightening guidance of the organization that mothered us? “Forsake not the law of thy mother.” (Prov. 6:20-23) And if the heavenly Father would not give a stone or serpent or scorpion to a child who asked for bread or fish or an egg from him, are we to take the spiritual food he provides through the slave into our hands as if we were going to be bruised by a stone or bitten by a serpent or stung by a scorpion? (Matt. 7:7-11; Luke 11:9-13, NW) Are we to be doubtful and suspicious about each new provision? “He who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah.” (Jas. 1:6, 7, NW) Even the Beroeans first received Paul’s preaching “with the greatest readiness of mind”, and then went to “carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so”. (Acts 17:11, NW) This was the first real contact the Beroeans had with Paul’s preaching, yet they received it readily and then studied the Scriptural support for themselves. How much more readily we can receive the slave’s provisions with confidence, since, unlike the Beroeans, we have much past experience with the precious provisions from the slave. After receiving these food supplies we prove their Scripturalness for ourselves to make the message our own, in a spirit of meekness and trustfulness and not combativeness.

Its difficult not to underline nearly every sentence in this quotation because I think this well illustrates the point I was trying to make.  If a JW comes to question the correctness of something the WT teaches, what is he expected to do as a faithful JW? Hold silently to what he firmly believes as true?  No.  Instead, this one should "have some confidence in the slave's provisions," because we are not, "more likely to be right than the discreet slave."  Therefore, "we should meekly go along with the Lord's theocratic organization and wait for further clarification."

Unless i'm missing something, the faithful JW is expected to go along with what the WT teaches, even if it questionable or something we feel is incorrect.  After all, they're smarter than us, right?

Discussion with a Jehovah's Witness "WorldHistory2011" on Independent Thinking

Just last evening I had a most interesting encounter with a JW.  But this wasn't just any encounter; it was recorded.  It all started with the following comment on THIS VIDEO:

But was it a "complete lie?"  Though my comment in 2:25 of that video was made in passing (the subject of the video was something different), I backed up my claim by referencing the following Watchtower quotation:

*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***

Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.

No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature... Thus, “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight. 

 What transpired was a 45 minute discussion with WorldHistory2011.

Go HERE to watch the encounter.

Go HERE to listen to the encounter.

The 144,000 rule over..."the Bible does not say," says the Watchtower

In the January 15, 2012 Watchtower Study Edition, p. 30 par. 18, the following is stated,

18 Thereafter, how will Jehovah use these highly privileged associates of Christ? According to Revelation 22:5, “they will rule as kings forever and ever.” Over whom? The Bible does not say. But the quality of life that they possess and their experience in helping a world of imperfect people will equip them to hold a regal position in Jehovah’s purposes forever.

I found this to be an noteworthy admission for several reasons.  But first, it must be emphasized that the above quote is not necessarily new, for the Watchtower has previously articulated a similar point,

*** re chap. 43 p. 313 par. 30 The Resplendent City ***

³⁰ John closes out this magnificent vision by saying of these slaves of God: “And they will rule as kings forever and ever.” (Revelation 22:5b) True, at the end of the thousand years, the benefits of the ransom will have been applied to completion, and Jesus will present a perfected human race to his Father. (1 Corinthians 15:25-28) What Jehovah has in mind for Jesus and the 144,000 after that, we do not know. But Revelation assures us that their privileged sacred service to Jehovah will continue into all eternity.

The reason I have found this to be noteworthy is because of a commonly used argument by Jehovah's Witnesses in defending the "two-class theology."  For example,

*** rs p. 79 Born Again ***

If Someone Says—

‘I’ve been born again’

You might reply: ‘That means that you expect someday to be with Christ in heaven, doesn’t it? . . . Have you ever wondered what those who go to heaven will do there?’ Then perhaps add: (1) ‘They will be kings and priests, ruling with Christ. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10) Jesus said that these would be just a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32)’ (2) ‘If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? . . . Here are some points that I found to be very interesting when they were drawn to my attention. (Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22)’

In other words, if there are rulers then there must be subjects.  Who are the rulers and who are the subjects?

*** w75 1/1 p. 21 par. 7 Appreciating the Things of God ***

The Scriptures show that those who would be joint heirs with Christ in his kingdom and who would rule with him for a thousand years would be 144,000 in number, and that on earth there would be an unnumbered “great crowd” that would prove themselves loyal subjects of that kingdom.—Rev. 7:4-10; 14:3-5; 20:6.

But is this "great crowd" meant to be subject to the 144,000 for all eternity?  The above quote from the January 15, 2012 issue as well as the "Revelation book" (abbreviated "re" above) indicate that the Watchtower is not sure because "the Bible does not say."


So what effect does the rulers/subject argument really have if the Bible doesn't tell us who these kings rule over?  Does this mean that non-JW apologists are no longer obliged to answer this argument?  


Some might be interested to read how some JW's have responded to this HERE.